Thanks to Bari I'm a new subscriber. Appreciated Shelby's brilliant insight on the sad psychology of the perpetual victim. I visited Israel about 12 years after statehood and then again 5 years ago. What these people have achieved in these years of nation hood is mind blowing. The perpetual degraded position of the average person living in the decadent Palestinian backwaters has got to be based on the idea of permanent victimhood and the grasping corruption of their so called leaders. And a dope like Biden wants the Palestinian Authority to run Gaza after the Israelis defeat Hamas.
I am all in--sent a modest contribution I hope to repeat often. Your father's essay reminds me so much of Thomas Sowell's writings on these topics, because they both demonstrate that human self-delusion is as old as time and as broad as the entire earth. Ultimately, our problem isn't economics, race, justice, etc., it's our appetite for an easier way-- to make excuses, rather than to confront our own faults--and that's why the most talented excuse-makers succeed in politics. The age old story is that Virtue comes very hard. But we have also seen that the arts can inspire us to take that hard road. I'm here because "What Killed Michael Brown" seized my attention and grew my thinking. You've done it before, Eli, stay with it.
I don't think Bari Weiss will mind if I share a couple of articles that will help to answer your question. In a nutshell, Hamas is doing very well for itself with the billions in aid. The Gazans not so much.
I have read/listened to some of the Whispered in Gaza pieces - I hope it's all true, but I confess as an older person who has seen the propaganda and misleading stories for every war over the past 40 years, it's hard for me to overcome my knee-jerk skepticism about practically everything. Once burned, etc. There are a few voices I trust, but even then I'm well aware that that trust is a choice, since like most people I don't have expert inside knowledge. At times it makes me want to tune out, not because I don't care but because I know enough to know there's a lot I don't know. Ugh.
I'm also an "older person" and I know what you mean. I take things with a "for what it's worth" attitude. My feelings about the testimonies of Gazans is that they have a ring of truth about them but may represent the feelings of a minority of the residents, the ones bitter enough to speak against Hamas even at risk to themselves.
It seems to me people fall into two camps - the ones who think the only problem is Hamas and that ordinary Gazans want nothing more than to be rid of them (as witnessed in the rare July protest against Hamas, which was quickly quelled) and live in peace with all their neighbours, which one would like to think. And there are the ones who think they are all onboard with the ultimate Hamas goals, and cite indoctrination from childhood (which would include a lot of the Hamas members who participated Oct 7 and grew up under Hamas). It would be interesting to know what the percentages really are, but impossible to know until Hamas no longer has power there. I have no idea.
... I gather Oct 7 was in the planning for a long time, but it happened fairly soon after the July protests, so I do wonder if Hamas needed a distraction from more potential internal unrest.
I have heard that between 2012 and 2018 Hamas, (not 'Palestine'--or the other 'Palestine' being methodically driven out of the West Bank) received upwards of one billion in cash from Qatar, requiring the cooperation of the Iraeli government for it to be physically brought into Gaza. This to support Hamas as a foil against the Palestinian Authority, who want the '2-state solution' that Zionists and Hamas both find intolerable. Aside from that, maintaining a prison population of 2.1 million people beyond the starvation level is going to cost in the billions over 'recent' years, e.g., at the current population level, just $10 per person per year amounts to over 2 billion dollars in one year.
From what I've read (and to be honest I don't want to spend a ton of time on this), there were many billions more, particularly from the EU and US. I wonder how much was used constructively, to make the life of ordinary people better (did they, for e.g., rebuild the greenhouses they destroyed when the Israelis left in 2005?), and how much got siphoned off for other things (as often happens with aid money in other places).
Israel didn't exactly leave Gaza in 2005. They just moved their people and army out, turned it into a prison and became the jailers. reentering on occasion to 'mow the lawn'. As for your rather obscure greenhouse reference, I might point out that greenhouses require enormous quantities of water and power to function properly, both of which became quite deliberately limited.
I see that it is. NYT July 15, 2005: "Israeli Settlers Demolish Greenhouses and Gaza Jobs". But it is interesting to see that now the NYT has been favoring your apparent POV in these topsy-turvy times, though perhaps reality is beginning to penetrate even that lingering fog of Zionist sympathy, which massive bombings are literally blowing away...
Try googling "imprisonment of Gaza". Also easy to find.
That wasn't the source I used for the greenhouse thing, and there was more to it than that story says (there was a lot of looting by the Palestinians; it would appear neither side is blameless. much more detail here: https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna9331863).
But my initial question is more about whether or not they were reconstructed. And what else got built? Like you, I do not much information. I feel bad for the ordinary Palestinians and Israelis who just want to live their lives in peace. I was there during the first months of the first Lebanon war (1982), and much as I wanted to stay, I was pretty sure this nightmare would never end, so I left. So far, I'm not wrong, and I still have no idea what a realistic solution would look like.
Olympic medal stand were the projection on your part. No one wears constant victimhood like Jews.
And that is from someone who is vehemently against antisemitism. Nothing justifies crimes against humanity. Nothing. Netanyahu and his associates are the biggest terrorists in the Middle East and that is quite a high bar.
Thanks to Bari I'm a new subscriber. Appreciated Shelby's brilliant insight on the sad psychology of the perpetual victim. I visited Israel about 12 years after statehood and then again 5 years ago. What these people have achieved in these years of nation hood is mind blowing. The perpetual degraded position of the average person living in the decadent Palestinian backwaters has got to be based on the idea of permanent victimhood and the grasping corruption of their so called leaders. And a dope like Biden wants the Palestinian Authority to run Gaza after the Israelis defeat Hamas.
I am all in--sent a modest contribution I hope to repeat often. Your father's essay reminds me so much of Thomas Sowell's writings on these topics, because they both demonstrate that human self-delusion is as old as time and as broad as the entire earth. Ultimately, our problem isn't economics, race, justice, etc., it's our appetite for an easier way-- to make excuses, rather than to confront our own faults--and that's why the most talented excuse-makers succeed in politics. The age old story is that Virtue comes very hard. But we have also seen that the arts can inspire us to take that hard road. I'm here because "What Killed Michael Brown" seized my attention and grew my thinking. You've done it before, Eli, stay with it.
Thank you so much, Andrew. Your support means everything and we will stay with it. :)
Very interesting. I have wondered about the billions of foreign aid Gaza has apparently received in recent years - what is there to show for it?
I don't think Bari Weiss will mind if I share a couple of articles that will help to answer your question. In a nutshell, Hamas is doing very well for itself with the billions in aid. The Gazans not so much.
https://open.substack.com/pub/bariweiss/p/the-untold-stories-of-gazans?r=57dgq&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
https://www.peacecomms.org/
I have read/listened to some of the Whispered in Gaza pieces - I hope it's all true, but I confess as an older person who has seen the propaganda and misleading stories for every war over the past 40 years, it's hard for me to overcome my knee-jerk skepticism about practically everything. Once burned, etc. There are a few voices I trust, but even then I'm well aware that that trust is a choice, since like most people I don't have expert inside knowledge. At times it makes me want to tune out, not because I don't care but because I know enough to know there's a lot I don't know. Ugh.
I'm also an "older person" and I know what you mean. I take things with a "for what it's worth" attitude. My feelings about the testimonies of Gazans is that they have a ring of truth about them but may represent the feelings of a minority of the residents, the ones bitter enough to speak against Hamas even at risk to themselves.
It seems to me people fall into two camps - the ones who think the only problem is Hamas and that ordinary Gazans want nothing more than to be rid of them (as witnessed in the rare July protest against Hamas, which was quickly quelled) and live in peace with all their neighbours, which one would like to think. And there are the ones who think they are all onboard with the ultimate Hamas goals, and cite indoctrination from childhood (which would include a lot of the Hamas members who participated Oct 7 and grew up under Hamas). It would be interesting to know what the percentages really are, but impossible to know until Hamas no longer has power there. I have no idea.
... I gather Oct 7 was in the planning for a long time, but it happened fairly soon after the July protests, so I do wonder if Hamas needed a distraction from more potential internal unrest.
I have heard that between 2012 and 2018 Hamas, (not 'Palestine'--or the other 'Palestine' being methodically driven out of the West Bank) received upwards of one billion in cash from Qatar, requiring the cooperation of the Iraeli government for it to be physically brought into Gaza. This to support Hamas as a foil against the Palestinian Authority, who want the '2-state solution' that Zionists and Hamas both find intolerable. Aside from that, maintaining a prison population of 2.1 million people beyond the starvation level is going to cost in the billions over 'recent' years, e.g., at the current population level, just $10 per person per year amounts to over 2 billion dollars in one year.
Wow!
From what I've read (and to be honest I don't want to spend a ton of time on this), there were many billions more, particularly from the EU and US. I wonder how much was used constructively, to make the life of ordinary people better (did they, for e.g., rebuild the greenhouses they destroyed when the Israelis left in 2005?), and how much got siphoned off for other things (as often happens with aid money in other places).
Israel didn't exactly leave Gaza in 2005. They just moved their people and army out, turned it into a prison and became the jailers. reentering on occasion to 'mow the lawn'. As for your rather obscure greenhouse reference, I might point out that greenhouses require enormous quantities of water and power to function properly, both of which became quite deliberately limited.
Information about the greenhouse story is easy to find.
I see that it is. NYT July 15, 2005: "Israeli Settlers Demolish Greenhouses and Gaza Jobs". But it is interesting to see that now the NYT has been favoring your apparent POV in these topsy-turvy times, though perhaps reality is beginning to penetrate even that lingering fog of Zionist sympathy, which massive bombings are literally blowing away...
Try googling "imprisonment of Gaza". Also easy to find.
That wasn't the source I used for the greenhouse thing, and there was more to it than that story says (there was a lot of looting by the Palestinians; it would appear neither side is blameless. much more detail here: https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna9331863).
But my initial question is more about whether or not they were reconstructed. And what else got built? Like you, I do not much information. I feel bad for the ordinary Palestinians and Israelis who just want to live their lives in peace. I was there during the first months of the first Lebanon war (1982), and much as I wanted to stay, I was pretty sure this nightmare would never end, so I left. So far, I'm not wrong, and I still have no idea what a realistic solution would look like.
Olympic medal stand were the projection on your part. No one wears constant victimhood like Jews.
And that is from someone who is vehemently against antisemitism. Nothing justifies crimes against humanity. Nothing. Netanyahu and his associates are the biggest terrorists in the Middle East and that is quite a high bar.
My expectations were low, but holy fuck!
Are you ever going to engage with the fundamental disagreement between your father and his twin brother? This would be a fascinating discussion.
No, that door has long been closed. Their works speak for themselves.